Leathernet Leather Trading Boards http://www.leathernet.com/forum This is an XML content feed of; Leathernet Leather Trading Boards : Last 10 Posts Sat, 25 May 2013 08:15:27 +0000 Fri, 17 May 2013 05:54:16 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 8.05a 30 www.leathernet.com/forum/RSS_topic_feed.asp Leather, Raw Hides and Skins : Cow and Buffalo Crust split for PU coating http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4227&PID=4231#4231 Author:akram
Subject: Cow and Buffalo Crust split for PU coating
Posted: 17 May 2013 at 5:54am

Dear Sir /madam

How are you?

I would like to introduce our self; we are tannery producing some of the finest buffalo and Cow articles which have become preferred choice of prestigious shoe manufacturers around the world. We are one of the best crust leather producers in Pakistan. We are exporting to Europe, Hong Kong, China, Japan, Taiwan, and Thailand at this moment. The detail as follow:-

1-Cow Suede Split Leather for shoes:-

Size : 4-10 Sq.ft average 6-8 Sqft 100% single butt
Substance : 1.2-1.4MM, 1.3-1.5MM
Selection : A/B
Color : Black, Brown, or any color as per customer requirement
Quantity : 200,000 Sqft per month

2-Cow Suede Split Leather for shoes:-
======================
Size : 7 Sq.ft average11-13 Sqft 100% Double butt
Substance : 1.2-1.4MM, 1.3-1.5MM
Selection : A/B
Color : Black, Brown, or any color as per customer requirement
Quantity : 200,000 Sqft per month

3-Cow Crust Split Leather for shoe upper:-
======================
Size : 4-10 Sq.ft average 6-8 Sqft 100% single butt
Substance : 1.2-1.4MM, 1.3-1.5MM
Selection : A/B
Color : Natural, Black, Brown, or any color as per customer requirement
Quantity : 200,000 Sqft per month

4-Cow Crust Split Leather for shoes upper:-
===========================
Size : 7 Sq.ft average11-13 Sqft 100% Double butt
Substance : 1.2-1.4MM, 1.3-1.5MM
Selection : A/B
Color : Black, Brown, or any color as per customer requirement
Quantity : 200,000 Sqft per month

5-Buffalo Crust Split Leather for shoes:-
=========================
Size : 7 Sq.ft average 11-13 Sqft 100% Single butt
Substance : 1.2-1.4MM, 1.4-1.6MM, 1.6-1.8MM, 1.8-2.00MM,2.00-2.2MM, 2.2-2.4MM
Selection : A/B
Color : Black, Brown, or any color as per customer requirement
Quantity : 600,000 Sqft per month

6-PU Laminated Buffalo Split Leather for shoes:-
======================================
Size : 12 Sq.ft average 14-16 Sqft 100% sides
Substance : 1.2-1.4MM, 1.4-1.6MM, 1.6-1.8MM, 1.8-2.00MM,2.00-2.2MM, 2.2-2.4MM
Selection : A/B
Color : Black, Brown, or any color as per customer requirement

7-Buffalo Barton Printed Split finish leather -
=================================
Size : 12 Sq.ft average 14-16 Sqft 100% Sides
Substance : 1.6-1.8MM or any thickness as per customer requirement
Selection : A/B
Color : Black,
Quantity : 200,000 Sqft per month

8-Buffalo Barton Printed Grain finish leather -
===================================
Size : 12 Sq.ft average 14-16 Sqft 100% Sides
Substance : 1.6-1.8MM or any thickness as per customer requirement
Selection : A/B
Color : Black,
Quantity : 200,000 Sqft per month

If you have required more information please don’t be hesitate to contact us by email at info@aimronleather.com or can call me at +923004585605

Awaiting for your positive reply

Best Regards
Akram
Skype : akramnoor]]> Fri, 17 May 2013 05:54:16 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4227&PID=4231#4231 Leather, Raw Hides and Skins : PICKLED SOUTH AFRICAN SHEEPSKINS & PICKLED GOATSKI http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4226&PID=4230#4230 Author:pdghs54
Subject: PICKLED SOUTH AFRICAN SHEEPSKINS & PICKLED GOATSKI
Posted: 09 May 2013 at 4:15pm

WE OFFER:
1FCL SOUTH AFRICA TOP GRADE PICKLED SHEEPSKINS
30 DRUMS OF A GRADES
50 DRUMS OF B GRADES
AVERAGE SIZE: 85-90 SQ.FT/DOZEN
ALL LARGE WOOLLY GLOVERS

AND
3FCL PICKLED BIG SIZE GOATSKINS
5,50-9,00 SQ.FT/SKIN
AVERAGE SIZE:ABOUT 85-90 SQ.FT/DOZEN
SELECTION IN PICKLED :30/40/30% A/B/C

REAL BUYERS ARE WELL COME
B/RGDS
GEORGE THIRIANOS
e-mails: pdg1954@otenet.gr and
        gthirianos@gmail.com
   ]]> Thu, 09 May 2013 16:15:45 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4226&PID=4230#4230 Leather, Raw Hides and Skins : cow crust and finished leather from Bangladesh http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4225&PID=4229#4229 Author:riimex
Subject: cow crust and finished leather from Bangladesh
Posted: 09 May 2013 at 9:25am

We are working as agent since 1989.
If you are looking for an agent / supplier in Bangladesh to buy any of the following, please try us:

(1) cow, goat, sheep or buffalo crust leather in chrome, vegetable, semi-chrome, non chrome and non-veg [NCNV] tanned -natural and dyed having thickness 0.9/1.0 mm, 1.0/1.2 mm, 1.1/1.3 mm, 1.2/1.4 mm, 1.3/1.5 mm, 1.4/1.6 mm

(2) cow lining leather - 0.7/0.9 mm

(3) cow, goat, sheep or buffalo finished leather;

(4) cow / buffalo wet blue split leather

(5) Cow wet blue head leather

After knowing your requirement we will quote our best price for your kind perusal.

Hope that we will be able to earn your satisfaction through our service.

Thanks & best regards,
Iqbal Ansari (Mr)
Dhaka
Bangladesh
Tel: 880-1715035122 / 880-2-9631110
Fax: 880-2-967251
E-mail: riimex@bol-online.com
Skype: iqbal-riimex
]]> Thu, 09 May 2013 09:25:10 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4225&PID=4229#4229 Leather, Raw Hides and Skins : Offer 1 : Leather Price List May 2013 Bangladesh http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4224&PID=4228#4228 Author:settgroup
Subject: Offer 1 : Leather Price List May 2013 Bangladesh
Posted: 08 May 2013 at 8:29am

From :Sett Group International
1/1 sonatongar,TanneryArea
Dhaka-1209
Bangladesh.
Phone:+8801678138530
Fax:+88028613558
Email:office@settgroupbd.com ,settgroup@gmail.com
Web: www.settgroupBD.com





Subject: Offer 1 : Leather Price List May2013


This quotation is valid until 30TH May 2013


COW DRUM DYED CRUSTLEATHER


Tanning:Full-Vegetable / Semi-Chrome / Full-Chrome


Size: 10/22 Sq.ftfull hides

Sub /Thicness:1.1-1.3/1.2-1.4mm

Selection / Grade: A/B/C(30 % / 30 % / 40 % )

Price: USD1.95 / Sq.ft.cfr by sea (INSQUARE FEET)


Size: 10/22sq.ftfull/sides hides

Sub / Thickness: 1.1-1.3/ 1.2-1.4 mm

Selection / Grade:A/B/C/D (10% / 20 % / 30% / 40% )

Price: USD 1.65 / Sq.ft.cfr by sea (IN SQUAREFEET)


Size: 10/22sq.ftfull/sides hide

Sub /Thickness: 1.1-1.3/1.2-1.4mm

Selection / Grade: C/D/E(30% / 30% / 40% )

Price: USD1.50 / Sq.ft.cnf by sea (INSQUARE FEET)

Size: 14 sq.ftper sides hides

Sub/Thickness: 1.1-1.3 / 1.2-1.4 mm

Selection/ Grade:A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H

Price: USD1.45 / Sq.ft.cfr by sea (INSQUARE FEET)
Minimumorder: 10000 sq.ft

COW LINING LEATHER INBIDGE


Tanning:Full-Vegetable / Semi-Chrome / Full-Chrome


Size: 10/22 Sq.ftfull hides / sides

Sub / Thicness:0.7– 0.9 mm

Selection / Grade: E/F (50 % / 50 % )

Price: USD1.25 / Sq.ft.cfr by sea (INSQUARE FEET)


Size: 10/22sq.ftfull/sides hides

Sub / Thickness: 0.7– 0.9 mm

Selection / Grade:E/F/G/H (25% / 25 % / 25% / 25% )

Price: USD 1.20 / Sq.ft.cfr by sea (IN SQUAREFEET)


Minimum order:10000 sq.ft

CALF CRUST LEATHER
Tanning: Full-Vegetable / Semi-Chrome /Full-Chrome
Color: NATURAL
Size: 10/16sqft sides/ full hides
Sub/Thickness :1.1-1.3/1.2-1.4mm
Selection/ Grade:A/B/C/D(10% / 20% /30%/40%)
Price: USD1.8/Sft.cnf by sea (IN SQUAREFEET)

Price: USD19.36 / Sq.Meter cnf by sea (IN SQUARE METER)
Minimumorder:10000 sq.ft

OFFER: COW NAPPALEATHER


Tanning:Full-Vegetable / Semi-Chrome / Full-Chrome


Color:NATURAL
Size: 10/16sqft sides/ full hides
Sub/Thickness:1.1-1.3/1.2-1.4mm

Selection / Grade:A/B/C/D ( 10% / 20% / 30% / 40% )

Price: USD 1.90 / Sq.ft.cfr bysea (IN SQUARE FEET)

Price: USD 20.45 / Sq.METER.cfr bysea (IN SQUARE METER)


Minimum order:10000 sq.ft

GOAT SKIN DRUM DYEDCRUST LEATHER


Tanning:Full-Vegetable / Semi-Chrome / Full-Chrome

Color:Natural


Size: 2.5 / 5sqft full hides

Sub/ Thickness:0.7-0.8mm

Selection / Grade: A/B/C(30 % / 30 % / 40 % )

Price: USD1.45 / Sq.ft.cfr by sea (SQUARE FEET)

Price: USD15.61 / Sq.METER.cfr by sea(SQUARE METER)


Size: 2.5/ 5 sqft full hides

Sub/ Thickness:0.7-0.8mm

Selection / Grade:A/B/C/D (10% / 20 % / 30% / 40% )

Price: USD 1.40 / Sq.ft.cfr by sea (IN SQUAREFEET)

Price: USD 15.07 / Sq.METER.cfr by sea (IN SQUAREMETER)


Size: 2.5 / 5sqft full hides

Sub/ Thickness:0.7-0.8mm

Selection / Grade: C/D/E(30% / 30% / 40% )

Price: USD1.30 / Sq.ft.cnf by sea (INSQUARE FEET)

Price: USD14.O / Sq.METER.cnf by sea(IN SQUARE METER)

Size: 2.5 / 5sqft full hides

Sub/ Thickness:0.7-0.8mm

Selection/ Grade:A/B/C/D/E/F (5% / 10% / 15% / 20% / 25% / 25%)

Price: USD1.25 / Sq.ft.cfr by sea (INSQUARE FEET)

Price: USD13.45 / Sq.METERcfr by sea (IN SQUAREMETER)


Minimum order:10000 sq.ft

Offer :Cow wet blue double butt splits/ for suede production

Full chrome cow buttsplit

in size: 10 sq.ftup 1.1-1.4mm

Price: USD 0.55/SQ.FT.CNF BY SEA (IN SQUAREFEET)
Quatity available:5x 20ft FCL per month

20ft FCL contain 85000sq.ft

Full chrome cow buttsplit

in size: 7 sq.ftup 1.1-1.4mm

Price: USD 0.30/SQ.FT.CNF BY SEA (INSQUARE FEET)

Price: USD 3.23/SQ.METER.CNF BYSEA (IN SQUARE METER)

Quatity available:7x20ft FCL per month

20ft FCL contain 85000sq.ft

Full chrome cow buttsplit

in size: 5 sq.ftup 1.1-1.4mm

Price: USD 0.22/SQ.FT.CNF BY SEA (INSQUARE FEET)

Price: USD 2.37 /SQ.METER.CNF BYSEA (IN SQUARE METER)

quatity available:7x20ft FCL per month

20ft FCL contain 85000sq.ft

Full chrome cow buttsplit

in size: 3 sq.ftup 1.1-1.4mm

Price: USD 0.20/SQ.FT.CNF BY SEA (IN SQUAREFEET)

Price: USD 2.15/SQ.METER.CNF BY SEA (IN SQUAREMETER)


quatityavailable:6x 20ft FCL per month


20ft FCL contain85000 sq.ft

Payment Terms: L/C at sight or 50 %T/T advance and 50% CAD
all the leather are Bangladeshi origin

Yours faithfully,
Mr.Karim Ansariabul
Intl. Sales Director

Sett GroupInternational
1/1Sonatongar , Tannery Area.
Dhaka-1209.Bangladesh

Contact: Mr.Akther Alam
Phone:+8801678138530
Fax: +88028613558
Skype:settgroup
Email:settgroup@gmail.com, office@settgroupbd.com

www.settgroupBD.com

www.facebook.com/settgroupinternational

Makes LeatherSourcing Simple.....

©2007 Sett GroupInternational | 1/1 sonatongar,TanneryArea.Dhaka-1209.Bangladesh

Makes Leather Sourcing Simple.....
]]> Wed, 08 May 2013 08:29:25 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4224&PID=4228#4228 Leather, Raw Hides and Skins : looking for wet blue/ raw cow hides http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4223&PID=4227#4227 Author:esnaashari
Subject: looking for wet blue/ raw cow hides
Posted: 06 May 2013 at 7:39pm

Dear Sirs,

We have a frequent demand for raw cow hide and wet blue.
We are eager to have your offer.

Regards

Edited by esnaashari - 17 May 2013 at 7:02pm]]> Mon, 06 May 2013 19:39:39 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4223&PID=4227#4227 Machinery : 2nd Hand and Reconditioned Tannery Machines http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4222&PID=4226#4226 Author:aardayildiz
Subject: 2nd Hand and Reconditioned Tannery Machines
Posted: 03 May 2013 at 8:42am

Hello Sirs/Madams,

YILDIZ DERI MAKINA, which has been operating in the leather sector since 1985, is producing and exporting tannery machines.

For the last 20 years we have reconditioned over 750 tannery machines and exported those machines to USA, Italy, Germany, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Khazakistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Algeria, Tanzania, Belarus.

In addition to this, we are importing first and second hand tannery machines.

Please have a look at our website; http://www.yildiztm.com for frequently refreshing second hand tannery machines list.

Have a nice day,
Ali Arda YILDIZ

Edited by aardayildiz - 03 May 2013 at 8:45am]]> Fri, 03 May 2013 08:42:42 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4222&PID=4226#4226 Leather, Raw Hides and Skins : Latest Leather Price List-May,2013 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4221&PID=4225#4225 Author:alihonesty
Subject: Latest Leather Price List-May,2013
Posted: 01 May 2013 at 3:01pm

THIS QUOTATION VALIDUNTIL 31ST MAY, 2013

 

1. COW  CRUSTLEATHER


Type: Full-Vegetable / Semi-Chrome / Full-Chrome

Color: Natural/Beige/Tan


Size: 10/24 SQ.F Full hides & Sides

Substance: thickness in1.0-1.2/1.1-1.3mm

I). Selection / Grade: A/B/C (30% / 30 % / 40 %)

Unit Price: US$2.00 / SQ.F C&Fby Sea

II). Selection / Grade:A/B/C/D (10% / 20 % / 30% / 40%)

Unit Price: US$1.90 / SQ.FC&F by Sea  

III). Selection / Grade: C/D/E(30% / 30% / 40%)

Unit Price: US$1.50 / SQ.FC&F by Sea  

 IV). Selection / Grade: A/B/C/D/E/F (5% / 10%/ 15% / 20% / 25% / 25%)

 Unit Price: US$1.70 / SQ.F C&F by Sea  

V). Selection / Grade:A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H (5% / 10% / 15% / 15% / 15% / 15% / 15% / 10%)

 Unit Price: US$1.60 / SQ.F C&F by Sea  

 VI). Selection / Grade: E/F/G/H (Each 25%)

 Unit Price: US$1.30 / SQ.F C&F by Sea  

Minimum order: 5000 SQ.F 

2. COW LINING LEATHER

Type: Full-Chrome Tanned

Color: Beige(Light/Deep/Yellow/Tan/Dark… Beige)


Size: 10/24 SQ.F Full hides & Sides

Substance: thickness in 0.7/0.9mmor 0.8/1.0mm

I). Selection / Grade: E/F (50 %/ 50 %)

Unit Price: US$1.30 / SQ.FC&F by Sea  

II). Selection / Grade: E/F/G/H(Each 25%)

Unit Price: US$1.20 / SQ.FC&F by Sea  

Minimum order: 5000 SQ.F

3. COW CALF CRUSTLEATHER


Type: Full-Vegetable / Full-Chrome
Color: NATURAL /WHITE/BEIGE
Size: 6/14SQ.F or 8/16SQ.F, 100% Full hides

Substance: thickness 0.8/1.0mm, or 0.9/1.1mm

Selection/ Grade: A/B/C/D (10%/20% /30%/40%)

Unit Price: US$1.90 / SQ.FC&F by Sea

Minimum order: 5000 SQ.F

 

 4. GOATSKIN  CRUST LEATHER


Type: Full-Vegetable / Full-Chrome

Color: Natural/Beige/White

Size: 2.0 / 4.5 SQ.F

Substance: thickness in 0.7/0.9mm, or 0.8/1.0mm

I). Selection / Grade: A/B/C/D(10 % /20%/ 30 % / 40 %)

Unit Price: US$1.40 / SQ.FC&F by Sea

 II). Selection / Grade: E/F/G/H(Each 25%)

Unit Price: US$1.15 / SQ.FC&F by Sea

Minimum order: 5000 SQ.F

 

Size: 3.0 / 6.0 SQ.F

Substance: thickness in 0.7/0.9mm, or 0.8/1.0mm

III). Selection / Grade: A/B/C/D(10 % /20%/ 30 % / 40 %)

Unit Price: US$1.50 / SQ.FC&F by Sea

 IV). Selection / Grade:E/F/G/H (Each 25%)

Unit Price: US$1.25 / SQ.FC&F by Sea

Minimum order: 5000 SQ.F

 

 5. STOCK LOT OF COWCRUST LEATHER

F/C, F/V, S/C Cow Crust leather

Size: 10/24sqft

Thickness: 1.0-1.2mm, 1.1-1.3mm, 1.2-1.4mm

Color: Beige/Natural/Black/Brown or Multicolor

Price:US$1.20/SQ.F C&F by Sea

6. STOCK LOT OF COWLINING LEATHER

F/C Cow Lining leather

Size: 10/24sqft

Thickness: 0.7/0.9mm,0.8/1.0mm

Color: Beige/Natural/Black/Brown or Multicolor

Price:US$1.05/SQ.F C&F by Sea

7. Wet Blue Cow Split-Single Butt for making gloves/suede/pulamination

Size: 5 SQ.F UP, Thickness:1.0/1.2mm,Price:US$0.30/SQ.F C&F by Sea

Size: 7 SQ.F UP, Thickness:1.2/1.4mm,Price:US$0.38/SQ.F C&F by Sea

Size: 9 SQ.F UP, Thickness:1.3/1.5mm,Price:US$0.39/SQ.F C&F by Sea

Size: 12 SQ.F UP, Thickness:1.4/1.8mm,Price:US$0.40/SQ.F C&F by Sea

 

 

8. Wet Blue CowSplit-Double Butt for making suede/pu coated

Size: 3 SQ.F UP, Thickness: 0.8/1.0mm,Price:US$0.18/SQ.F C&F by Sea

Size: 5 SQ.F UP, Thickness:0.9/1.1mm,Price:US$0.26/SQ.F C&F by Sea

Size: 7 SQ.F UP, Thickness:1.1/1.3mm,Price:US$0.365/SQ.F C&F by Sea

Size: 10 SQ.F UP, Thickness:1.2/1.4mm,Price:US$0.52/SQ.F C&F by Sea

Size: 14 SQ.F UP,Thickness:1.4/1.8mm, Price:US$0.42/SQ.F C&F by Sea

Capacity of Quantity: 10 x 20ftFCL per month

20ft FCL container = 85000 SQ.F,(+-) More or Less

 Payment Terms: L/Cat sight or T/T in Advance and Packing list T/T
Origin: Bangladesh

 

If you have any interested to buy this materialat low prices, please feel free for more details.

Thanks

Best Regards

Ahmed Ali

S.A Trade International

Add: 181/D, Hazaribagh, Tannery Area

Dhaka-1209, Bangladesh

Tel: +880-1911503677

Fax: +880-29665884

Email: leatheritali@gmail.com

Skype: ali.leather

 

]]> Wed, 01 May 2013 15:01:51 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4221&PID=4225#4225 Leather, Raw Hides and Skins : raw wetsalted greek origin lambskins for napa & g http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4220&PID=4224#4224 Author:pdghs54
Subject: raw wetsalted greek origin lambskins for napa & g
Posted: 29 Apr 2013 at 9:20am

We offer:

RAW WETSALTED GREEK ORIGIN LAMBSKINS (FRESH PRODUCION)
SIZE: 5-8 SQ.FT/SKIN
AVG.SIZE: ABOUT 6,25-6,50 SQ.FT/SKIN
90/10% A/B

AND

RAW WETSALTED GREEK ORIGIN FRESH PRODUCTION GOATSKINS
ABOUT 15.000 PIECES OF SIZE 2-3 SQ.FT/SKIN ALL WHITES
ABOUT 45.000 PIECES OF SIZE 3-6 SQ.FT/SKIN

ONLY REALLY INTERESTED BUYERS COULD CONTACT US.]]> Mon, 29 Apr 2013 09:20:54 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4220&PID=4224#4224 Leather, Raw Hides and Skins : BABY CALF http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4219&PID=4223#4223 Author:chintown
Subject: BABY CALF
Posted: 26 Apr 2013 at 8:29am

DEAR SIRS

WE ARE LOOKING FOR BABY CALF PLS SEE IF YOU CAN DO ?
 

  • Weight:3-5kg
  • Size: 6-9sq.ft/skins
  • average size : 8-9SQ.FT PER SKIN
  • Selection: A/B:
  • Trimmed.
  • Brine cured.
PLS SEND US THE PICTURES BOTH HAIR AND FRESH SIDES
price is: USD $  CFR QIANGDAO PORT.
1 X20' CONTAINER WITH 5.000 PIECES.
]]> Fri, 26 Apr 2013 08:29:29 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4219&PID=4223#4223 Leather, Raw Hides and Skins : wet salted or pickled goat skin http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4218&PID=4222#4222 Author:chintown
Subject: wet salted or pickled goat skin
Posted: 26 Apr 2013 at 8:25am

eed wet salted or pickled goat skin small size,2.5-3.5sf/pc,if you can supply,pls send us all specs such as:Origin/thickness/size/selection/packing/price CNF China Ningbo port/quatity per 20 or 40 FCL loading/shipping schedule/voyage time and so on..with closed pictures

]]> Fri, 26 Apr 2013 08:25:01 +0000 http://www.leathernet.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4218&PID=4222#4222